I feel compelled to comment as an affirmation of the fact that your authenticity and integrity (and the self-doubt that such character traits necessarily entail) are the very things that resonate so strongly with me and, I'm quite sure, other listeners.
My experience has been that there's often a middle way that isn't necessarily obvious, and doesn't fit neatly into the bifurcated seemingly limited black-or-white options.
I hope you find a lucrative means to creative fulfilment, you certainly deserve to.
ok some of the comments on this very good post are WILD so i am going to comment something even though i dont really have anything to say but just to counteract the mood. In my opinion: You should not sell out and make the kind of "always on" podcast you talk about -- something that would obviously make you miserable & also wouldn't even be as "easy" as you're making it sound in any of the important ways -- but you also shouldn't conclude that therefore if you make something independent it has to go HARD the other way in terms of polish and finesse and perfectionism and complex reportage. Tom Scocca has been doing a podcast called The Indignity Morning Podcast that is literally 4 minutes every morning of him reading the headlines in the new york times and briefly giving his thoughts. It's the best thing I've heard in a LONG time because it feels genuinely intimate not just manufactured so as to seem intimate, plus the time investment is tiny and there are no stakes. I think you should follow the ideas which are in the middle of a venn diagram of "easy to quickly execute" and "actually interests me." I don't know if you've read Max Read on Yglesias, but he mines some genuinely useful advice from the man's annoyingness -- his piece is in conversation with this one. (https://maxread.substack.com/p/matt-yglesias-and-the-secret-of-blogging). Make random shit, put it somewhere people can see it, don't think too hard about it.
in the spirit of this post i feel like i should disclose you and matt yglesias are the only two substacks i pay for. lol.
also. reply all is forever and even still building fans today, that’s the great thing about podcasts. you’re an OG. personally i would cash in at this point, make some shit that won’t nearly define your brand as much as reply all and yes yes no ever will. for all the reasons you lay out, podcasting today is just a way more bullshit industry than it was and everyone’s ears are updating to that. but the fact that you hesitate to sell out is of course why you’re successful at all.
anyway just do yes yes no with celebrity guests!
orrrr make a series about all the dark, searing conflict and pain involved in coming to a rights agreement on yes yes no with alex and pj and spotify?? would listen!
If it sounds like fun to you, "Yes, Yes, No" with celebrities or something like it is what you should do. I don't know what your relationship with PJ is like at this point, but the thing that made Reply All great was not the perks of the corporate apparatus so much as the chemistry between you and PJ; that coupled with the tribal knowledge you guys have of the Internet.
YYN distills all that down into a fine gastrique that you could easily do once a week for minimal overhead (provided you have the right foil if PJ's not an option). What's great about YYN, aside from the inexpensive repeatable formula, is that it can open up all kinds of rabbit holes that I imagine would still satisfy your journalistic proclivities for when you get tired of the incessant silliness (not bashing incessant silliness--what a gift to have something in your life that is fun and silly and easy _and_ pays the bills?).
Some hurdles that come to mind:
1. Twitter is apparently imploding, but all that conversation is probably going to end up on some platform (or several platforms) somewhere.
2. Blumberg's paternal awkwardness was a key ingredient of YYN, but that could be replaced by well-chosen, _smart_ celebrities.
I think this would be wildly popular. Do it now before the Reply All fame completely fades. Get PJ back if you can. Get an agent and a publicist and some venture capital. Tap Blumberg. Be nice about it, but he owes you guys. If it's popular enough, you can pick and choose sponsors that align with your principles.
I like this "No" answer. When listening to Reply All, I often felt that PJ was slightly condescending towards his co-host (Mr. Alex Goldman). I could never tell if it was a schtick aimed at making good radio, or if there was something deeper happening, something behind the scenes that we listeners were not privy to. Personally, I found those condescending moments a turn-off. Celeb history is rife with great on-air hosts and not-so-great off-air relationships.
Reply All was magic, pure magic in the original form. I was afraid the Spotify acquisition would ultimately be bad for RA, and podcasting in general. Was right on both accounts.
You guys went through a really difficult period, and I honestly thought you personally handled it with the most integrity and openness. I wish the newer version would’ve worked out, because I liked the dynamic.
Difficult show-changing period or not, I still think Spotify would’ve caused the same problems, causing the same results. I’m not sure that they fully understood the value of letting you folks just go make stories as compared to some of the newer formats of content.
I’m gonna always be an Alex fan, because you’ve been true to yourself, and us as the listener and reader, from Day 1. That kind of dependability isn’t something you find most places, and it’s a quality I look for in people I want to interact with anyway.
I think you're overthinking it big time. You have a ready-built audience who like your voice, your personality and your storytelling. We don't want to listen to the other 3 million podcasts, we want The Alex Goldman Show.
Option 1 is significantly better than option 2. If you want to research a story for 5 minutes then cool, if you want to research a story for 5 weeks then cool. If you want to do a mixture then cool. Sit down with a microphone for 30 minutes a week and just talk. That's all we want.
"more than ever I have to be a “brand” online, which is something I truly loathe with all my heart" oh, man, thank you for this and all the rest. I'm a photographer (not a journalist but I guess an "image maker") and have completely whiffed it when it on a business social media... I had a little kid when Instagram was first coming up, and I very concertedly thought "I don't want this to be for work photography, I just want to share my baby pix with my friends and see my friends' babies pix". And after a few years, it was way too late to successfully get it going... but also, I greatly resent how much a person has to attempt to be influence-y and I don't wanna! I had a halfhearted FB page for work and felt amazing when I deleted it, have never looked back.
anyway, I'm old and grouchy and kinda pivoting towards accounting these days anyway. But I really appreciated your post today.
I just wanted to tell you how much I love Reply All, which you have heard many times before. I'm a sociology professor and I use The Crime Machine in multiple classes. To teach rationalization, but also just to give students some insight into how many police departments work. Those two episodes are some of the best long form journalism ever and they are mind-blowing semester after semester for my students. Thanks for that.
You just documented all of the reasons why the OGs at Gimlet wouldn't want to unionize because they deserved to be paid more. You nuked your own and your co-hosts careers over it, and are apparently now a professional 'complain about how I have no career' person. Then you have the audacity to tell someone ELSE to go fuck themselves? I guess I know for sure who the toxic one in that relationship was now, and it wasn't Mr Vogt or Ms Pinnamaneni.
I am totally fascinated by the breakdowns of how much different creators make. One I follow and contribute to on patreon was originally working a day job and eventually was able to transition over to doing his podcast full time, and it was interesting watching the amount he made monthly grow over the years during this transition. I've not seen a breakdown of his monthly costs with his podcast, but being a one man operation, that sounds like a lot of work for what he's doing.
On Yglasias' advice, it would be interesting to try that as an experiment (not that I condone culture war like that!), and document every step along the way. That's an ecosystem that would be interesting to penetrate, just because there is so much shady stuff going on there.
Thanks Alex. Super sobering post on the current state of audio journalism, and journalism more broadly. I want more than anything to exist in this space as well. Your perspective is brutally pragmatic, but there are a few things that are helping me maintain my optimism about the podcasting industry. 1) no one can predict the future, and as cliche as it sounds we all forge our own path. Despite what you say, you are a big name in the industry and if you let your passion shine through then there is no doubt you will capture some of that lightning again. Even if it is an "always on show," you can use that as a stepping stone to get back to producing the types of things you want to. 2) The shows I like that are wholly or mostly independently backed like -- Articles of Interest, Darknet Diaries, Nocturne, Underunderstood, Love and Radio -- continue to produce because they have found their audience and are passionate about niche intimate storytelling. We got this.
"I have never really felt like I was on-time to anything in my life" oh man. This is the unadulterated truth. But I get the sense as I grow old that only thing one can be on time for is the thing you create yourself
You may have looked into this already but you could talk with Jason Calacanis on a colab. He understands the journalism side as well as the podcast side, but also brings an opportunity for VC or angel type funding where needed.
This could bring together the best of both options you listed in Part II.
There’s a show called Underunderstood that’s kind of a low stakes, casual version of Reply All in its concept. Internet mystery solving, good host chemistry. They also have a Patreon. It’s good and it’s one of many shows I’ve seen that get recommended to people online asking for shows that can fill the Reply All void, but nothing really does. Anyway, a show that’s basically just Alex Goldman with a cohost going down internet rabbit holes even if it’s on a smaller scale than Reply All, I think that would do it.
I’ve been working on a passion project “investigative comedy” podcast for three years now without selling it or broadcasting it and holy hell does this all ring true.
I quit my job last year to build a mobile app independently. I've been doing that and facing many decisions about where my ethical boundaries are regarding privacy, participating in the ad-backed internet, and more. So in that sense, I see some of my experience reflected in what you're pondering about. Though I can't claim the same success.
I feel compelled to comment as an affirmation of the fact that your authenticity and integrity (and the self-doubt that such character traits necessarily entail) are the very things that resonate so strongly with me and, I'm quite sure, other listeners.
My experience has been that there's often a middle way that isn't necessarily obvious, and doesn't fit neatly into the bifurcated seemingly limited black-or-white options.
I hope you find a lucrative means to creative fulfilment, you certainly deserve to.
ok some of the comments on this very good post are WILD so i am going to comment something even though i dont really have anything to say but just to counteract the mood. In my opinion: You should not sell out and make the kind of "always on" podcast you talk about -- something that would obviously make you miserable & also wouldn't even be as "easy" as you're making it sound in any of the important ways -- but you also shouldn't conclude that therefore if you make something independent it has to go HARD the other way in terms of polish and finesse and perfectionism and complex reportage. Tom Scocca has been doing a podcast called The Indignity Morning Podcast that is literally 4 minutes every morning of him reading the headlines in the new york times and briefly giving his thoughts. It's the best thing I've heard in a LONG time because it feels genuinely intimate not just manufactured so as to seem intimate, plus the time investment is tiny and there are no stakes. I think you should follow the ideas which are in the middle of a venn diagram of "easy to quickly execute" and "actually interests me." I don't know if you've read Max Read on Yglesias, but he mines some genuinely useful advice from the man's annoyingness -- his piece is in conversation with this one. (https://maxread.substack.com/p/matt-yglesias-and-the-secret-of-blogging). Make random shit, put it somewhere people can see it, don't think too hard about it.
in the spirit of this post i feel like i should disclose you and matt yglesias are the only two substacks i pay for. lol.
also. reply all is forever and even still building fans today, that’s the great thing about podcasts. you’re an OG. personally i would cash in at this point, make some shit that won’t nearly define your brand as much as reply all and yes yes no ever will. for all the reasons you lay out, podcasting today is just a way more bullshit industry than it was and everyone’s ears are updating to that. but the fact that you hesitate to sell out is of course why you’re successful at all.
anyway just do yes yes no with celebrity guests!
orrrr make a series about all the dark, searing conflict and pain involved in coming to a rights agreement on yes yes no with alex and pj and spotify?? would listen!
Yes yes no with celebrities is a golden idea.
If it sounds like fun to you, "Yes, Yes, No" with celebrities or something like it is what you should do. I don't know what your relationship with PJ is like at this point, but the thing that made Reply All great was not the perks of the corporate apparatus so much as the chemistry between you and PJ; that coupled with the tribal knowledge you guys have of the Internet.
YYN distills all that down into a fine gastrique that you could easily do once a week for minimal overhead (provided you have the right foil if PJ's not an option). What's great about YYN, aside from the inexpensive repeatable formula, is that it can open up all kinds of rabbit holes that I imagine would still satisfy your journalistic proclivities for when you get tired of the incessant silliness (not bashing incessant silliness--what a gift to have something in your life that is fun and silly and easy _and_ pays the bills?).
Some hurdles that come to mind:
1. Twitter is apparently imploding, but all that conversation is probably going to end up on some platform (or several platforms) somewhere.
2. Blumberg's paternal awkwardness was a key ingredient of YYN, but that could be replaced by well-chosen, _smart_ celebrities.
I think this would be wildly popular. Do it now before the Reply All fame completely fades. Get PJ back if you can. Get an agent and a publicist and some venture capital. Tap Blumberg. Be nice about it, but he owes you guys. If it's popular enough, you can pick and choose sponsors that align with your principles.
No
I like this "No" answer. When listening to Reply All, I often felt that PJ was slightly condescending towards his co-host (Mr. Alex Goldman). I could never tell if it was a schtick aimed at making good radio, or if there was something deeper happening, something behind the scenes that we listeners were not privy to. Personally, I found those condescending moments a turn-off. Celeb history is rife with great on-air hosts and not-so-great off-air relationships.
Reply All was magic, pure magic in the original form. I was afraid the Spotify acquisition would ultimately be bad for RA, and podcasting in general. Was right on both accounts.
You guys went through a really difficult period, and I honestly thought you personally handled it with the most integrity and openness. I wish the newer version would’ve worked out, because I liked the dynamic.
Difficult show-changing period or not, I still think Spotify would’ve caused the same problems, causing the same results. I’m not sure that they fully understood the value of letting you folks just go make stories as compared to some of the newer formats of content.
I’m gonna always be an Alex fan, because you’ve been true to yourself, and us as the listener and reader, from Day 1. That kind of dependability isn’t something you find most places, and it’s a quality I look for in people I want to interact with anyway.
Keep your chin up.
I think you're overthinking it big time. You have a ready-built audience who like your voice, your personality and your storytelling. We don't want to listen to the other 3 million podcasts, we want The Alex Goldman Show.
Option 1 is significantly better than option 2. If you want to research a story for 5 minutes then cool, if you want to research a story for 5 weeks then cool. If you want to do a mixture then cool. Sit down with a microphone for 30 minutes a week and just talk. That's all we want.
"more than ever I have to be a “brand” online, which is something I truly loathe with all my heart" oh, man, thank you for this and all the rest. I'm a photographer (not a journalist but I guess an "image maker") and have completely whiffed it when it on a business social media... I had a little kid when Instagram was first coming up, and I very concertedly thought "I don't want this to be for work photography, I just want to share my baby pix with my friends and see my friends' babies pix". And after a few years, it was way too late to successfully get it going... but also, I greatly resent how much a person has to attempt to be influence-y and I don't wanna! I had a halfhearted FB page for work and felt amazing when I deleted it, have never looked back.
anyway, I'm old and grouchy and kinda pivoting towards accounting these days anyway. But I really appreciated your post today.
I just wanted to tell you how much I love Reply All, which you have heard many times before. I'm a sociology professor and I use The Crime Machine in multiple classes. To teach rationalization, but also just to give students some insight into how many police departments work. Those two episodes are some of the best long form journalism ever and they are mind-blowing semester after semester for my students. Thanks for that.
Make up with PJ and just do wonderful things together ♥️
You just documented all of the reasons why the OGs at Gimlet wouldn't want to unionize because they deserved to be paid more. You nuked your own and your co-hosts careers over it, and are apparently now a professional 'complain about how I have no career' person. Then you have the audacity to tell someone ELSE to go fuck themselves? I guess I know for sure who the toxic one in that relationship was now, and it wasn't Mr Vogt or Ms Pinnamaneni.
Then stop whining and get over yourself. Jesus Christ.
I am totally fascinated by the breakdowns of how much different creators make. One I follow and contribute to on patreon was originally working a day job and eventually was able to transition over to doing his podcast full time, and it was interesting watching the amount he made monthly grow over the years during this transition. I've not seen a breakdown of his monthly costs with his podcast, but being a one man operation, that sounds like a lot of work for what he's doing.
On Yglasias' advice, it would be interesting to try that as an experiment (not that I condone culture war like that!), and document every step along the way. That's an ecosystem that would be interesting to penetrate, just because there is so much shady stuff going on there.
Thanks Alex. Super sobering post on the current state of audio journalism, and journalism more broadly. I want more than anything to exist in this space as well. Your perspective is brutally pragmatic, but there are a few things that are helping me maintain my optimism about the podcasting industry. 1) no one can predict the future, and as cliche as it sounds we all forge our own path. Despite what you say, you are a big name in the industry and if you let your passion shine through then there is no doubt you will capture some of that lightning again. Even if it is an "always on show," you can use that as a stepping stone to get back to producing the types of things you want to. 2) The shows I like that are wholly or mostly independently backed like -- Articles of Interest, Darknet Diaries, Nocturne, Underunderstood, Love and Radio -- continue to produce because they have found their audience and are passionate about niche intimate storytelling. We got this.
"I have never really felt like I was on-time to anything in my life" oh man. This is the unadulterated truth. But I get the sense as I grow old that only thing one can be on time for is the thing you create yourself
You may have looked into this already but you could talk with Jason Calacanis on a colab. He understands the journalism side as well as the podcast side, but also brings an opportunity for VC or angel type funding where needed.
This could bring together the best of both options you listed in Part II.
There’s a show called Underunderstood that’s kind of a low stakes, casual version of Reply All in its concept. Internet mystery solving, good host chemistry. They also have a Patreon. It’s good and it’s one of many shows I’ve seen that get recommended to people online asking for shows that can fill the Reply All void, but nothing really does. Anyway, a show that’s basically just Alex Goldman with a cohost going down internet rabbit holes even if it’s on a smaller scale than Reply All, I think that would do it.
I’ve been working on a passion project “investigative comedy” podcast for three years now without selling it or broadcasting it and holy hell does this all ring true.
Thoughtful and well-put, as always. Your brand is gold with me and my kids (now young adults), we will follow you wherever.
I quit my job last year to build a mobile app independently. I've been doing that and facing many decisions about where my ethical boundaries are regarding privacy, participating in the ad-backed internet, and more. So in that sense, I see some of my experience reflected in what you're pondering about. Though I can't claim the same success.